FRIDAY 5 OCTOBER 2018 COMPLETEMUSICUPDATE.COM
TODAY'S TOP STORY: Eventbrite is facing a class action in the US over the hacking of the Ticketfly website back in June. A lawsuit filed with the courts in Illinois earlier this week says that "despite the fact Eventbrite was storing sensitive information that it knew was of value to, and vulnerable to, cyber attackers, Eventbrite failed to take basic security precautions that could have prevented the disclosure of its customers' personally identifiable information"... [READ MORE]
Available to premium subscribers, CMU Trends digs deeper into the inner workings of the music business, explaining how things work and reviewing all the recent trends.
   
CMU TRENDS IN FIVE STEPS: SAFE HARBOUR
As the draft new copyright directive in Europe reaches its final stages, the safe harbour reforms it contains remain very much in the spotlight. But what is the safe harbour and why does it need reforming? CMU Trends explains. [READ MORE]
   
CMU TRENDS GUIDE TO MUSIC RIGHTS
This three part CMU Trends guide provides a beginner's guide to music copyright and the music rights business. In it, we cover ownership, controls and licensing, and review key trends in streaming, physical, sync and public performance. [READ MORE]
TOP STORIES Eventbrite sued over Ticketfly hack
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LEGAL Suge Knight sentenced to 28 years in prison
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LIVE BUSINESS US government to put the spotlight on the ticketing market
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ARTIST NEWS Westlife reunite, Boyzone release farewell single
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RELEASES Skunk Anansie announce 25th anniversary live album
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GIGS & FESTIVALS Ride announce 30th anniversary acoustic tour
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ONE LINERS Moby, Olly Murs, Mumford & Sons, more
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AND FINALLY... Beef Of The Week #424: John Lydon v Green Day
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CMU Insights is our training and consultancy business providing training courses, conference sessions and research reports for music companies.
   
BUILDING A FANBASE & FAN BUSINESS SEMINARS
Three weekly evening seminars from Monday 8 Oct
These three seminars provide a guide to music marketing and fanbase building, with sessions on social media, music media and PR, and direct-to-fan channels. [READ MORE]
   
MECHANICS OF MUSIC MANAGEMENT SEMINARS
A new five part seminar series starting Tuesday 2 Oct
The Music Managers Forum has teamed up with CMU Insights to present a new five part training programme exploring best practice and current trends in artist management. [READ MORE]
Check out all the latest job opportunities with CMU Jobs. To advertise your job opportunities here email advertising@unlimitedmedia.co.uk or call 020 7099 9060.
   
NOTTINGHAM TRENT SU - MARKETING CO-ORDINATOR (NOTTINGHAM)
The NTSU Entertainments department are looking to recruit a marketing co-ordinator to plan and implement effective marketing and promotional campaigns that will maximise attendance at events.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
AUDIO NETWORK - SENIOR A&R MANAGER UK & EUROPE (LONDON)
Audio Network seeking a Senior A&R Manager (UK & Europe) to work in the A&R team. You will have a primary focus on the implementation of Audio Network’s UK and European A&R and wider music strategy.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
THE ORCHARD - INTERACTIVE MARKETING MANAGER (LONDON)
The Orchard is looking for a savvy, seasoned digital music marketer to promote its distributed artists in Europe and beyond. The ideal candidate will come from a label or distribution background and have an exceptional understanding of the digital space.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
DOMINO - PRODUCT MANAGER (BERLIN)
Based in our Berlin office, Domino Recording Company is seeking a full time Product Manager to run artist campaigns for the German market.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
ONE LITTLE INDIAN - HEAD OF RADIO/TV (LONDON)
One Little Indian Records is looking for Head of Radio/TV. You will oversee the National Radio/TV for our roster. You will initiate, coordinate and implement the promotional strategy for artists on our roster.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
FABRIC - SENIOR MARKETING MANAGER (LONDON)
Fabric is looking for a savvy and experienced marketing person with an expert touch on digital. The successful candidate will work alongside the Booking & Promotions Team and lead the fabric communications requirement.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
BIMM - EVENTS & CAREERS ASSISTANT (LONDON)
This role provides a unique opportunity to assist the BIMM Artist Development, Events, Guests and Careers teams. The position will involve assisting with day to day administration as well as getting involved with hosting masterclasses and assisting at the external BIMM events.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
MANCHESTER ACADEMY - OPERATIONS MANAGER (MANCHESTER)
The University of Manchester Students’ Union and Manchester Academy is looking for two enthusiastic Operations Managers. Our Operations Managers make sure all our clients, visitors and customers receive an excellent service experience, whilst ensuring the safe and legal operation of the venues.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
KILIMANJARO LIVE - PROMOTER ASSISTANT (LONDON)
Kilimanjaro Live have a vacancy for a Promoter Assistant. The role requires a high level of accuracy and attention to detail, a great work ethic and good language and spreadsheet skills. It would likely suit someone who is looking for progression from their first or second admin role.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
WARP RECORDS - UK PROMOTIONS CO-ORDINATOR (LONDON)
Warp Records has an exciting opportunity for a UK Promotions Co-ordinator, to be based in their London office. The full-time role is part of the UK team, supporting creative and effective campaigns for the label’s roster of ground-breaking artists.

For more information and to apply click here.
   
SECRETLY DISTRIBUTION - DIGITAL MARKETING CO-ORDINATOR (LONDON)
Secretly Distribution seeks a full time Digital Marketing Co-ordinator based in our London office. This individual will work closely with our international and digital teams in a wide reaching role that will focus on sales and marketing in multiple territories outside of the US.

For more information and to apply click here.

Eventbrite sued over Ticketfly hack
Eventbrite is facing a class action in the US over the hacking of the Ticketfly website back in June. A lawsuit filed with the courts in Illinois earlier this week says that "despite the fact Eventbrite was storing sensitive information that it knew was of value to, and vulnerable to, cyber attackers, Eventbrite failed to take basic security precautions that could have prevented the disclosure of its customers' personally identifiable information".

The Ticketfly website went offline in early June following the hacking of the company's servers at the end of May. At the time the US-based Eventbrite subsidiary stated that "following a series of recent issues with Ticketfly properties, we've determined that Ticketfly has been the target of a cyber incident. Out of an abundance of caution, we have taken all Ticketfly systems temporarily offline as we continue to look into the issue. We are working to bring our systems back online as soon as possible. Please check back later".

A week later, with its services resumed, a spokesperson told reporters: "Last week Ticketfly was the target of a malicious cyber attack. In consultation with third-party forensic cybersecurity experts we can now confirm that credit and debit card information was not accessed. However, information including names, addresses, email addresses and phone numbers connected to approximately 27 million Ticketfly accounts was accessed".

During the downtime, Vice's tech site Motherboard said that it had been in correspondence with a person who claimed to be behind the hack. That hacker, who goes by the name of IsHaKdZ, claimed that he warned the ticketing company of a vulnerability that gave him access to the firm's entire database and website. He apparently offered to explain what that vulnerability was in return for one bitcoin, but received no reply to that offer.

Those claims are specifically cited in the lawsuit, which states that: "On information and belief, Eventbrite was notified by the hackers prior to the data hack that its IT systems contained a vulnerability. Nonetheless, Eventbrite failed to take reasonable measures following such communication to either discover and mitigate the vulnerability or follow-up with the source of the communication".

The lawsuit also claims that Ticketfly didn't directly inform the plaintiff about the data breach or that her personal details had been exposed during the hack. The legal papers say that said plaintiff - Ticketfly customer Shanice Kloss - only found out about the hack more recently and had to utilise a third party tool to confirm her personal information was among that grabbed by the hacker back in May.

It goes on: "[The] defendant not only failed to protect plaintiff's and other customers' personally identifiable information but also failed to inform them of the data breach in a reasonable manner and without undue delay".

The lawsuit is seeking class action status, so that anyone else affected by the breach could join the litigation. Which - given Ticketfly's statement that information attached to about 27 million accounts was accessed during the hack - could be significant. The legal papers specifically accuse Eventbrite of breach of contract and negligence, and of violating consumer fraud and deceptive business practice laws in Illinois.

Eventbrite, which acquired Ticketfly from Pandora last year, is yet to comment on the lawsuit.

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Suge Knight sentenced to 28 years in prison
One time hip hop mogul Suge Knight was formally sentenced over the death of Terry Carter yesterday. As expected, he was handed 28 years in prison.

The sentence comes at the end of a long-running criminal case over the 2015 death of Carter, who Knight ran over with his vehicle following an altercation outside a burger bar in LA, near where a trailer was being filmed for the NWA biopic 'Straight Outta Compton'. The criminal action was brought to an end when Knight agreed to a plea deal last month, pleading 'no contest' to a charge of voluntary manslaughter, rather than murder.

Knight seemingly had an initial run in with another man, Cle Sloan, on the 'Straight Outta Compton' set, after he showed up there reportedly to complain about his portrayal in the movie. When the altercation moved to the burger bar car park, Sloan was joined by Carter. Knight ran over both men and drove away. Carter later died as a result of his injuries.

There were many delays in the legal proceedings, thanks to the circus surrounding Knight's fighting of the murder charge. He went through numerous lawyers in the process, two of whom were charged over allegations of misconduct. Jury selection was due to begin last month but was called off after Knight reached his plea deal.

At yesterday's hearing, several of Carter's family members read out statements. "You're unrepentant", Carter's daughter Crystal told him. "Your callous actions took my dad's life away". Addressing the judge, she added: "He is truly a disgusting, selfish disgrace to the human species. He murdered my dad in cold blood and is a menace to society".

The maximum penalty for voluntary manslaughter in California is eleven years, but this was doubled under the state's three-strikes law. An additional five years were added because the conviction is for a serious and violent felony, and another one year was added for Knight's use of his truck as a deadly weapon, bringing the sentence to 28 years in total.

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US government to put the spotlight on the ticketing market
The Federal Trade Commission in the US has announced that it will hold a public session next March putting the spotlight on the ticketing business - with both the primary and secondary ticketing markets set to be discussed.

The event - called a 'public workshop' by the government agency - follows that report earlier this year in the New York Times that accused Live Nation and its Ticketmaster business of anti-competitive behaviour, and the more recent reports in the Canadian press over the ticketing giant's relationship with touts. Though Ticketmaster itself was keen to point out that the FTC session is a simple workshop involving the whole live entertainment industry, and not a probe looking into any one player in the market.

Announcing the event yesterday, the FTC said: "The online event ticket industry has been a frequent topic of consumer and competitor complaints, and FTC staff is seeking public input in advance of the workshop, including possible discussion topics and potential participants". It added that the session would bring together a "variety of stakeholders, including industry representatives, consumer advocates, trade associations, academics and government officials".

Specific issues on the agenda include "practices that prevent consumers from obtaining tickets, mislead consumers about price or availability, or mislead consumers about the entity from which they are purchasing". The event, the FTC concluded, "will discuss the current state of the online event ticket marketplace, shed light on industry-wide advertising and pricing issues, and explore ways to address deception beyond traditional law enforcement".

Of course, in recent years the loudest debate around ticketing has been on the resale market and the practices of touts and the secondary ticketing platforms they utilise.

While that debate of late has been more active in Europe than America, there'll be plenty of familiar touting topics on the FTC's agenda. Including touts advertising tickets they don't actually have yet. And the way resale sites list prices and market themselves on search engines. And the use of so called bots by touts to access tickets (and the BOTS Act passed in the US that attempts to restrict the use of such software to hoover up tickets to in-demand events).

But it won't just be about touting. The primary ticketing market will be discussed too, with some issues on that side US specific, while others are relevant worldwide.

Ticketmaster said yesterday that it "welcomes and looks forward to participating in the FTC workshop on online ticketing in March 2019". It then added: "To be clear, this is an industry wide workshop - not a probe. We encourage other ticketing companies to take part in educating consumers and lawmakers on the opportunities and challenges in the ticketing industry and to join us in further action to improve the consumer ticket buying experience, including aggressive enforcement of the BOTS Act, the elimination of speculative ticket sales and restrictions on deceptive marketing and misleading ticketing URLs".

With the recent hoo haa around the report on Ticketmaster's involvement in the secondary market Stateside, events like this could result in the anti-touting movement gaining new momentum in the US, as it has in Europe in recent years. In the UK, the government instigating a review of the secondary ticketing market in 2015 helped to rally those in the music community who wanted the ticket resale market to be better regulated, many of whom had previously given up pushing for such legal reforms.

However, an organisation representing 'ticket brokers' in the US also welcomed the FTC workshop yesterday, hoping it would deal with some of the issues faced by its members. The National Association Of Ticket Brokers - which describes itself as "an association of professional ticket resale companies that 'do resale the right way'" - said it hoped the FTC event would put the spotlight on "anti-competitive practices" in general and the dominance of Tickemaster in the US ticketing market in particular.

It's Executive Director, Gary Adler, put out a statement in which he mused: "For anyone who enjoys live events and purchases tickets, or who works in the ticketing business and competes with the giant Ticketmaster, it is welcome news today that the Federal Trade Commission will convene a workshop to examine the anticompetitive practices that NATB has been warning about for a long time".

Citing those recent media reports about the Live Nation company's operations, he went on: "The Department Of Justice is already reportedly investigating Ticketmaster against complaints that it may be violating the consent agreement it entered into when it merged with Live Nation, and now the FTC has announced it will look into practices that limit ticket availability on the primary market and mislead consumers about ticket prices and availability".

"The FTC specifically announced that it will explore ways to address deception beyond traditional law enforcement", he added, "and this is terrific because hopefully, for the sake of consumers and a competitive ticket market, much needed change will result from this process. The frustrations that consumers face today in accessing the tickets they want and at a price they consider reasonable or at market value stem almost entirely from practices related to the initial ticket supply and how it is tightly controlled at every turn".

Concluding, he wrote: "This primary market for tickets, from sports to music, is overwhelmingly monopolised by the Live Nation/Ticketmaster giant. The lack of vibrant competition in the market combined with Live Nation/Ticketmaster's hands on so many levers to restrict ticket sales and resale is why tickets are more difficult to access and more expensive to purchase, a situation that harms consumers and needs fixing. We look forward to participating in this FTC workshop".

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Vigsy's Club Tip: Bedrock 20th anniversary
John Digweed is having a party over in East London tonight to mark the 20th anniversary of his Bedrock label. A global name in house himself, Digweed's record company is one of the most influential in electronic music.

As well as an extended set from Digweed, another big name will precede him: the great Laurent Garnier, a man who lives and breaths electronic music. Like Digweed, he's a true global superstar DJ and producer.

Danny Howell shores up the trio with his blend of prog house. This brings things full circle, as Howell used to open up the Bedrock club nights for Digweed for nine years.

Friday 5 Oct, E1 London, 110 Pennington Street, Wapping, London, E1W 2BB, 10pm-6am, £35. More info here.

Westlife reunite, Boyzone release farewell single
To be honest, I'd completely forgotten that Westlife split up. But apparently they did in 2012. Anyway, they're back together again for their 20th anniversary.

Kian Egan, Nicky Byrne, Mark Feehily and Shane Filan are all on board and they are planning to release new music as well as tour. Brian McFadden, who left the group in 2004, will not take part.

The reunion was announced in a video, which opens with four empty stools, which the band members then fill one by one before sort of announcing their return. There's a pretty good gag about a key change, made all the better by the fact there's no actual singing in the video.

Commenting on the reunion on Irish radio station Today FM, Boyzone's Keith Duffy was quick to remind the band of their origins: "Ourselves and Take That always got on well, and in the early days ourselves and Westlife got on well too. I'm not saying we don't now but the reality of it is, Westlife started as Boyzone's support act. They started as our opening act, they warmed up our audience for us on our European tour and our first two UK tours".

Boyzone, meanwhile, are about to release a farewell album and head out on their final tour, which will take them into next year. Given how well Westlife did after Boyzone's first split, the timing seems perfect.

Speaking of which, Boyzone have just released new single 'Love', co-written with that Gary Barlow, presumably proving Duffy's claim of good relations between those two rival groups. "Boyzone fans everywhere will love the sentiment and passion in this huge song and we can't wait for everyone to hear it", say the band.

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Skunk Anansie announce 25th anniversary live album
Skunk Anansie have announced that they will release a new live album, '25live@25'. It's being released to mark their 25th anniversary and it's got 25 tracks on it. Hence the title.

"As a black female singer, it was hard to get accepted in many ways", says vocalist Skin, reflecting on the band's origins in 1994. "And then I was onstage, doing exactly what I envisioned in my dreams. And I felt for the first time that I was accepted."

Guitarist Ace adds: "London in the 1990s was a mish-mash of people. But bands weren't - it was always four blokes with identical haircuts. We were a band of people who were real. That's why we were radical".

The album is set for release on 25 Jan. Listen to the version of 'Weak' from it here.

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Ride announce 30th anniversary acoustic tour
Ride announced earlier this week that they are heading off out around the UK for an acoustic tour to mark their 30th anniversary. Five shows will take place in late November and early December.

"These shows will explore and span old and newer songs giving us a chance to play some tunes we rarely get to perform along with more familiar tunes in a different way", say the band. "We've been loving all the shows we've been playing since our reunion and we look forward to these".

Tickets go on sale on Friday. Here are the dates:

29 Nov: Brighton, St George's Church
30 Nov: Margate, Dreamland
2 Nov: Bristol, Trinity Centre
3 Dec: London, EartH
4 Dec: Manchester, Royal Northern College Of Music

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Moby, Olly Murs, Mumford & Sons, more

Other notable announcements and developments today...

• When Moby sold off a large portion of his vinyl collection, you might have wondered how he could give up those records. Now he's planning to sell almost 200 of his drum machines, but I think that is probably easier to accept. Starting on 11 Oct, the sale will benefit the Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine.

• Olly Murs has announced that he will release his new album, 'You Know I Know', on 9 Nov. In an attempt to make it more interesting, the new LP will be packaged with a second disc of his greatest hits.

• Fabric's final Fabriclive compilation - the 100th in the series - will be released on 26 Oct. It will feature three mixes, from residents Craig Richards and Terry Francis, and club founder Keith Reilly. More info here.

• AlunaGeorge have released new single 'Cold Blooded Creatures', featuring Bryson Tiller.

• Alessia Cara has released new single, 'Trust My Lonely'. It's taken from her second album, 'The Pains Of Growing', which is yet to be given a release date.

• Sigrid has released new single 'Sucker Punch'. "'Sucker Punch' is one of my favourite songs so far and I've been so excited for release day", she says. "Emily Warren, Martin Sjølie and I made it when we were in Ocean Sound Recordings in my hometown a while ago. The song is just a result of our usual way of working: talking, cooking, strolling, singing, dancing, experimenting! Ugh it was so fun - just like the track itself".

• Courtney Barnett has released new song 'Small Talk', recorded during the sessions for her latest album, 'Tell Me What You Really Think', but not included on it.

• Daniel Avery has put live a video for his recently released 50 minute ambient piece 'Visible Gravity'.

• Following her recent collaboration with Midori Takada, Lafawndah is back with new single 'Joseph'.

• Princess Chelsea has released the video for 'Growing Older', from her latest album 'The Loneliest Girl'.

• Mumford & Sons will head out on a tour of the UK and Ireland next month, starting in Dublin on 16 Nov. Tickets go on sale next Friday.

• Minimalist legend Terry Riley has announced a short UK tour in April next year, which will conclude with a show at Union Chapel in London on 16 Apr. Tickets are on sale at this very moment.

• Check out our weekly Spotify playlist of new music featured in the CMU Daily - updated every Friday.

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Beef Of The Week #424: John Lydon v Green Day
So, here's a thing. The other day I saw a headline informing me that John Lydon thinks that Green Day are "turgid" and not real punks. Funny, I thought to myself, I read the interview where Lydon said that a couple of weeks ago, why is this suddenly news again now?

Of course, it's not uncommon for slightly old quotes to suddenly reappear for a second time in your social feeds and even on the more formal news agenda, and normally I'd have just moved on to the next thing. But on this occasion my curiosity got the better of me and I clicked the link. It turned out that this wasn't referencing the interview I'd read before, but a new feature in the New York Times.

Wondering whether he was just repeating here what he'd said two weeks ago, I revisited that September interview I'd read. Where, it turned out, his newsworthy comments were, in fact, about Donald Trump. There was no mention of Green Day. I'd entirely misremembered that. Which was a bit weird. Until I remembered why this all seemed rather familiar. It wasn't that I'd read about Lydon's distaste for Green Day a couple of weeks prior. I suddenly recalled an interview from the 1990s where he'd also laid into them.

So I was right. Lydon's distaste for Green Day isn't a new thing. He has longstanding beef going back at least two decades. And, while searching for that particular 1990s diss that I remembered, I discovered a plethora of other Green Day jibes from Lydon, which is presumably why those new remarks seem so especially familiar.

In fact so many jibes have there been, I've become slightly obsessed with the task of documenting them all. Though that would be a major task indeed, because Green Day really do bug him.

It wasn't always this way, though. The earliest occasion of Lydon talking about Green Day that I could find was an interview from 1996, shortly after the Sex Pistols reunited for the first time. In an interview with Guitar World, Lydon and guitarist Steve Jones referenced a comment made by Green Day frontman Billie Joe Armstrong.

Asked what he thought about the Sex Pistols getting back together, Armstrong had commented that it seemed like a bit of a cash-in, not entirely in-keeping with the band's values. He then reworked Lydon's most famous lyrics and said "I am the anti-Christ/Please buy our merchandise". Of course the Pistols themselves had called the reunion the 'Filthy Lucre Tour', so they were also kind of acknowledging the cash-in.

"That Green Day Billie Joe guy is kind of funny", says Jones in the 1996 piece. "I just saw an interview with him last week on MTV".

Lydon replies: "Ah, he's got a good sense of humour. I'll give him that. The t-shirt concessions joke he made about us... I put a fax through to him and said, 'Fine, you can sell t-shirts at our gigs'".

Then asked to rate Green Day musically, neither has much to say. "They're poppy", says Jones. Lydon simply adds: "Tra la la la la".

Soon after those happy remarks, however, something snapped. Possibly because Lydon tired of being repeatedly asked what he thought of Green Day, the biggest punk band of the time, while promoting his reunion tour.

In a particularly antagonistic interview with MTV the same year, Lydon was asked what he felt he could "offer a sixteen year old Green Day fan that Green Day can't?" The answer? "A big willie", said Lydon, who at this point had already called interviewer Toby Amies "queer".

While his bandmates rather more diplomatically said that they felt The Sex Pistols offered something 'real', something newer bands couldn't replicate, Lydon chipped back in to counter Amies's claim that he felt he'd already had the genuine punk experience by watching these newer bands play.

"No, you've seen imitators, that's what you've seen", spat Lydon. "And you settled for that, and you think that that's what it's all about, Alfie. Well it ain't. It's a little bit more. It's called content, which is something none of those wanky third-rate outfits have".

"There ain't no trashy little love songs in this outfit", he went on. "Every single lyric is a killing nail in the coffin of what you call the establishment. Like what you work for - MTV? Bye bye. I think I've said my piece. Now fuck off!"

On the other side of this beef, Armstrong was asked in an interview with Spin the following year about his view on the longevity of punk. The interviewer noted that the genre had lived long enough for the Sex Pistols to get back together again eighteen years after splitting up.

"I heard that Johnny Rotten was running around telling people that we'd ripped him off", said Armstrong. "It's funny, because if it wasn't for the Sex Pistols there may not have been Green Day, but if it wasn't for Green Day, the Sex Pistols wouldn't have done their big reunion tour. To each his own".

I don't know how fair an assessment that is. Although it is quite possible that the keen interest in punk that Green Day built among a more mainstream audience in the mid-90s did help with that particular Sex Pistols revival.

Of course Green Day's output and popularity waned a little in the next few years, though in 2004 they had a big resurgence with 'American Idiot'. By attacking the politics of the day, specifically calling out then American president George W Bush, they were heralded by many as keeping the spirit of punk alive.

John Lydon did not agree. In 2006, he appeared on Steve Jones's radio show where they once again chatted about Green Day. Discussing the importance - or lack of it - of getting your music into the charts, Lydon ranted: "It's hokey little silly sods like Green Day that come in and think by sucking up to that system that you're somehow, 'beating the system'. You're not. You've become part of it".

This is the Sex Pistols whose second single, 'God Save The Queen', famously went to number two in the UK singles chart, sparking a conspiracy that the chart had been rigged to stop them going to number one during the Queen's Silver Jubilee. You could, just possibly, argue that releasing that single in that specific week - knowing the controversy it would cause and the records that would shift - was also "sucking up to that system" in a way, while thinking they were "somehow 'beating the system'".

Lydon went on to describe Green Day as "sticky tape on a duck's ass", while both him and Jones then discussed how the younger band would never have made it in the London scene of 1977.

"They would have been laughed at", said Jones. Lydon countered that they wouldn't have been able to take being beaten up. "The hammerins and hidins were a bit severe, weren't they?" To be fair, they were. Lydon was beaten pretty badly on at least two occasions in 1977, thanks to penning the lyrics to 'God Save The Queen'.

Still, I'm not sure it's a bad thing that writing 'American Idiot' didn't get Billie Joe Armstrong physically attacked. But the fact that he wasn't means he can't claim to be a punk, reckoned Lydon. "We made it easy for em to come in and nick our things off us - which is alright, it's nice, but they're silly, rich fat kids".

That 1990s comment from Armstrong about merchandise then came up again, with neither of them remembering how funny they found it first time round. Jones even says he's "not sure if they were taking the mick", while Lydon counters that they shouldn't have said it and that there's "no need to fib".

He goes on: "I've had problems with them about that and a few other things. You know, we never liked the term 'punk' originally either, did we? It was this Caroline Coon brought it up in a Melody Maker article, 'King Of Punk'. King? Me? No. You know, here I am, putting down the monarchy. Irony, or what? And there I was, 'punk', Mr Big's toy boy and now, we have Green Day ... happily running to be Mr Big's toy boy".

That same year, the Sex Pistols were inducted into the Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame, although the group did not attend the ceremony. Instead, Lydon posted a message on the band's website, saying: "Next to the Sex Pistols, rock and roll and that Hall Of Fame is a piss stain. We're not your monkeys, we're not coming. You're not paying attention".

It's a shame really, because the rumour was that Green Day had been asked to do the formal induction at the big event. Something Lydon later sort of confirmed in an interview, saying: "Green Day were asked by the Hall Of Fame, would they award us this thing".

He then descended into conspiracy theory: "They were asked this before we were asked if we would even accept it. Right? So we weren't even involved in who was going to award us. But it allowed Green Day the chance to go, 'Oh no we turn our noses up at that. Oh no, won't have nothing to do with that. The Sex Pistols aren't punk. We're real punk'. So those fat little kids that turn up three years in a row with the same 'American Idiot' album on the Grammys have the nerve to be pompous about us".

Now, I'm not saying Green Day never said that about the Hall Of Fame event, though in my rigorous research for this beef write up, I haven't come across anything that includes those remarks. Although in the same, Lydon claims: "I just read an appraisal of the Sex Pistols by [Armstrong] this morning. It's a press blurb that they put out. It's on the internet. It's hilarious".

Well, at least he's back to recognising Armstrong's sense of humour. I'd say that's progress. Except it's not, really. Because Lydon's got a bit bogged down in his beef with Green Day ever since then. Discussing the work of newer band Fall From Grace with Wired in 2007, he noted that "they aren't the best players, but by god, unlike Green Day, this band actually really enjoy what they are doing".

Then in 2009, in a Guardian article discussing his favourite albums, he said that The Raincoats' 1979 debut album was "a million miles away from the blancmange that is Green Day, where you have a Johnny Rotten first verse, a Billy Idol chorus and a Sham 69 second verse. Preposterous!"

Meanwhile in 2010, he told Q that the Arctic Monkeys were "a mockery ... very much like that awful band Green Day".

By 2011 he'd stopped crowbarring Green Day into discussions about other bands and had just gone back to hating them directly. It helped that by this point 'American Idiot' had been turned into a Broadway show, which, to be fair, didn't seem very punk.

"Many of the punk bands are cop-outs and imitators and have made it easy for the likes of Green Peace - Green Day, who I hate", he told the LA Times.

"I really I can't stand them", he continued. "To me, they're like coat hangers, and haven't earned the right, they haven't earned the wings, to be wearing the mantle of punk. They haven't had to go through the violence, and the hate, and the animosity that us chaps way back when had to put up with. We had to fight for every single footstep. I don't think I've done anything good if it ends up with Green Day on Broadway".

By 2013, the inevitable had happened and Lydon had actually run into the band he most liked to diss. Apparently they had a little chat when they met and - for some reason - those Green Day boys were a little spiky.

"Green Day have to be the worst karaoke band around", he told Crack. "You know I met them in Russia? They were bitter and twisted. And they were amazingly ignorant, not only about the history of punk, but the history of music period, or history in any shape or form! When the record company got hold of them, they must have really known they'd found some dummies, that they could lead them in any direction they wanted. And they're more than willing".

In part, this all started because Green Day were a modern reference point when the Sex Pistols were trying to promote a reunion tour. But more than 20 years later, Lydon was still banging on about them, long after anyone had thought to ask.

Reflecting last year on punk's 40th anniversary and what it all meant, he told Newsweek: "I don't know, but it ended up with Green Day running around in studded leather jackets. There's no personal animosity there with members of bands, but it's like, don't use the term punk, because you're not. Why don't you use your own terminology, your own expressions. To me, they were karaoke".

No animosity! None at all. He just hates them and everything they stand for. Which is nothing, because they're just pretending to be something.

Anyway, that brings us up to the present day and this New York Times interview. Asked what he thinks of punk bands today, he says: "It is embarrassing, really. How many bands are out there like Green Day now? I look at them, and I just have to laugh. They're coathangers, you know? A turgid version of something that doesn't actually belong to them".

At this stage, Green Day are now as old a reference to the new bands of today as the Sex Pistols were to Green Day when Lydon started this beef all the way back in 1996. Yet the beefing continues, even though there are certainly younger punk bands who would be just as worthy of Lydon's wrath. In fact, I'd say this has gone beyond mere beef and become some sort of artform. I hope it never ends.

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